Gun owners: They did it

Don

Well-known member
They did it. All carry law restrictions in USA were just struck down by supreme court's ruling in the NY state challenge today.

Let’s see what we will have to do to excercise our claims in light of the ruling.
 

Blackcat Outdoors

Well-known member
That's not what they ruling says, although that would be epic. It says carrying outside the home is a part of the 2A and States must allow people to carry without having to justify it.

It strikes down "May Issue" states like NY,MD,NJ who require you to show a reason you need to carry, before issuing a permit and is going to force them to become "Shall Issue" like we have in PA; Where the permit is issued, unless they can show just cause to not issue it.

It's not a Grand Slam, but a base hit toward being able to carry nation wide. The most important thing in the decision is SCOTUS affirming carry outside the home is covered by the 2A. Before that it was only affirmed that the 2A let you have a gun in your home. That's big and can be used to fight other laws restricting carry.
 

truecrimson

Well-known member
That's not what they ruling says, although that would be epic. It says carrying outside the home is a part of the 2A and States must allow people to carry without having to justify it.

It strikes down "May Issue" states like NY,MD,NJ who require you to show a reason you need to carry, before issuing a permit and is going to force them to become "Shall Issue" like we have in PA; Where the permit is issued, unless they can show just cause to not issue it.

It's not a Grand Slam, but a base hit toward being able to carry nation wide. The most important thing in the decision is SCOTUS affirming carry outside the home is covered by the 2A. Before that it was only affirmed that the 2A let you have a gun in your home. That's big and can be used to fight other laws restricting carry.
I disagree. The most important thing is the SC saying that text and history are the legal standards and completely dismissing the strict scrutiny verses intermediate scrutiny debate that had been going on since Heller and McDonald.

In Don's defense, what I've read of the decision so far lead me to question whether it could be the basis of law suits against shall issue states to compel constitutional carry. The way Thomas words some of it makes it sound like he sees any hindrance, qualification, or condition beyond syaing no to prohibited people to be unconstitutional. Potentially we could see suits on training mandates, and background checks, and fees in shall issue states as well as suits in may issue states. If I read it correctly.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 

Don

Well-known member
What? you're not a Lawyer, hmm, darn. Well thanks for coming to my defense. I deserve it!

I agree with your assessment but what TS says is likely to be the way it will be treated. Up-hill fight where every word is fought over.

This is the key: "Potentially we could see suits on training mandates, and background checks, and fees in "shall issue states" as well as suits in many issue states." We need to win these arguments including today's Gun law being debated (21 yr olds).
 

truecrimson

Well-known member
Yeah, it's been a fight ever since Heller kicked open the door for us. Nothing new there. McDonald kicked open Chicago, and it took years and more law suits to get it to where most law abiding middle and upper class people there can legally own and carry, eventually, if they do enough stuff and wait long enough. And people will keep suing until all people can own and carry, not just middle and upper class, and can do it quicker.

NY, CA, NJ, HI, and MD will squirm and scream and it will take brave people in those states to sue to change things. But this decision has kicked open the door for those law suits. And maybe it has kicked open the door to many more things as well. I see LKB has posted his analysis at TTAG. I'll try to read it before night shift comes in.
 

Melvinp

Well-known member
Gotta say first of all I am a true believer in my second amendment rights but how do we keep these darn kids and mentally troubled people from legally getting there hands on a semi and a 30 round clip darn it this sucks that we live in a world where we don’t feel safe.There’s all kinds of answers that all have something wrong with them.I shouldn’t have opened my button push mouth but enough kids have been killed something has to be done there’s no one answer
 

Don

Well-known member
Virtually all those in recent years have had rap sheet a mile long but the Judges and politicians kept letting them off. We need to be able to hold our officials to the fire as well. They are to blame. Then fathers that won't raise their kids.... I can tell you that we're in trouble and I don't want to be the one who must go unarmed. My dear Wife and our daughters need an equalizer. Until Christ returns for us this is how it is...the bad guys have guns and they're trying to take ours away.
 

Blackcat Outdoors

Well-known member
Gotta say first of all I am a true believer in my second amendment rights but how do we keep these darn kids and mentally troubled people from legally getting there hands on a semi and a 30 round clip darn it this sucks that we live in a world where we don’t feel safe.There’s all kinds of answers that all have something wrong with them.I shouldn’t have opened my button push mouth but enough kids have been killed something has to be done there’s no one answer
You said it, it's a tough answer. There were tons of failures with this last one by the school, police, and state gov't. Officers were on scene 3 minutes from the initial call and did nothing. Both exterior doors of the school were unlocked and the classroom could not physically be locked from the inside. This all came out in the Texas state police investigation along with tons more. The kid in question also should have been prohibited, but it wasn't turned over to the feds before he bought the guns. This all could have been prevented by existing laws, rules, and a uvalde police Chief that's not a pussy/incompetent.

I'd like to start by addressing anyone one and all of these issues, before I give up my fundamental rights, but that's just me. 😁
 

A-5

Moderator
Gotta say first of all I am a true believer in my second amendment rights but how do we keep these darn kids and mentally troubled people from legally getting there hands on a semi and a 30 round clip darn it this sucks that we live in a world where we don’t feel safe.There’s all kinds of answers that all have something wrong with them.I shouldn’t have opened my button push mouth but enough kids have been killed something has to be done there’s no one answer
You don’t leave the front door to a school in Texas opened. People that are documented with a mental handicap can not buy guns.


We live in a country that has places names Chad in Seattle. We are legally allowed to burn down cities. We are legally allowed to basically do anything you want. Until you defend yourself such as the ST Louis couple last year and Kyle Rittenhouse. In Kyle rittenhouse case Black Rifle coffee walked away from him and dropped him like a bad habit. Black rifle coffee can fold all I care. Melvin your right. It’s a mind blowing problem. But the roots are deeper than any of us want too discuss
 

Bootfoot

Active member
Gotta say first of all I am a true believer in my second amendment rights but how do we keep these darn kids and mentally troubled people from legally getting there hands on a semi and a 30 round clip darn it this sucks that we live in a world where we don’t feel safe.There’s all kinds of answers that all have something wrong with them.I shouldn’t have opened my button push mouth but enough kids have been killed something has to be done there’s no one answer
We can start by being responsible gun owners. I’m always amazed at the number of people who leave guns in their cars or under their mattress. Get a gun safe and secure your guns when not home. If you must take your gun outside the home then keep it on your persons. there are small things we can all do that will help some.
 

Don

Well-known member
We can start by being responsible gun owners. I’m always amazed at the number of people who leave guns in their cars or under their mattress. Get a gun safe and secure your guns when not home. If you must take your gun outside the home then keep it on your persons. there are small things we can all do that will help some.
In a perfect world I agree with you but I should also be able to do what I want in my home. Anyone coming into my home to steel guns or anything should be put away when caught and stay there and not be let out.
I have all my guns in a safe except the one I have for my wife. She will never open the safe. But she will carry and that is the only one out.
 

Don

Well-known member
You don’t leave the front door to a school in Texas opened. People that are documented with a mental handicap can not buy guns.


We live in a country that has places names Chad in Seattle. We are legally allowed to burn down cities. We are legally allowed to basically do anything you want. Until you defend yourself such as the ST Louis couple last year and Kyle Rittenhouse. In Kyle rittenhouse case Black Rifle coffee walked away from him and dropped him like a bad habit. Black rifle coffee can fold all I care. Melvin your right. It’s a mind blowing problem. But the roots are deeper than any of us want too discuss
Actually most mass school shootings are the direct fault of gov’t programs. This starts with compulsory education. Ever wonder how that was ever tolerated. One little law at a time until we have what we have today. And there is no way to hold them into account.
All of the buildings ever built by our schools are still standing but only four or five are still being used. Easton has +/- 4000 kids in one building. No ability to enforce moral, religious or patriotic standards. 35-40 students in a classroom. They are all concentrated into places far from their communities they live in. Imagine the potential and horrible things that could go wrong.
And the nerve of gov’t enforcing these rules and turning their backs on All the rioting and lawlessness we see. They will take our children from us if we don’t comply by sending them off every day.
I won’t even get into how our schools are funded prejudicially, by taxing only property owners.
 

truecrimson

Well-known member
My first thing is to suggest we stop preventing people from carrying in schools if they can legally carry in their state. There would instantly be an anonymous force of armed people protecting schools and no one would know who or where they are.

People carry everyday in public, around their kids and other kids, at the grocery store, at church. They don't screw up enough for us to notice. So they should be safe enough in schools.

The second thing is to point out the failures of individuals involved to apply common sense and current law. More laws for people not to follow will not help.

In Uvalde this kids nickname from the other kids was 'school shooter'. How much more obvious does it need to be? Teachers and school personnel did nothing.

In the past he posted video on social media of cops at his home for a domestic disturbance. In that video he is screaming at his mother. No police record of this interaction can be found. So cops dropped the ball there. Maybe more than once. Just because there was one video doesn't mean there was only one instance.

In 2018 1 or 2 students at Uvalde middle school were arrested and removed for plotting a school shooting. Plans they discussed included doing it on the anniversary of columbine and in 2022 when they turned 18. Hey it's 2022! He just turned 18! What a coincidence! In 2018 he was at Uvalde middle school. He was either one of them or he was their classmate.

Before entering the school he fired at 2 funeral home employees who had come to help when he crashed the truck. They ran back inside the funeral home. One of them called his wife and told her to bring him his gun. He did not have it because Texas banned guns from funeral homes in the 90s when concealed carry was enacted because of gangs shooting up funerals. If that ban was not in place he could have stopped it before the shooter jumped the fence.

In anyplace in the US you can call the cops on someone you think is crazy. The cops will do a Wellness check. If the cops agree that the person is not right then the cops can take the person for a mental health evaluation. Even against their will. If committed or adjudicated mentally incompetent they are prohibited from owning guns or ammo. But often this information is not shared with NICs despite the law that created NICS in 1993 and the Fix NICS act which only increased use of NICS against people who should not be prohibited.

Cho, the shooter at Virginia Tech years ago, was supposed to be prohibited. But that information never made it from his therapist to NICS. Everyone blames everyone else in the chain for that.

In NY the Buffalo shooter was investigated a year before the shooting for threatening a shooting at his high school. NY has a red flag law. The cops could have used it against that shooter. His own family and the parents of other kids and the school officials could have used it against the shooter. He would not have been able to purchase the guns he used.

Cruz, the Parkland shooter, had numerous encounters with law enforcement including the FBI. Reasons included threats, harming animals (a tell tale sign of violent mental issues), and threatening a school shooting, possibly more than once. He was never arrested or committed because the Obama Justice department was pressuring local law enforcement and school police to not arrest or prosecute black and hispanic kids.

At Parkland, at Uvalde, and at the Pulse Night Club police were present quickly, but spent significant time engaging in onanism staging and preparing while more people were shot and shot people bled out.

It's been a long time since we had a mass shooter use an unsecured family members gun. Ramos bought his, Buffalo shooter bought his, Cruz bought his, San Bernadino bought theirs, Sutherland Springs bought his (US Hair Farce did not report his dishonorable discharge or his domestic violence convictions), Sandy Hook stole his moms which was secured in a safe to which he had the combination.

Every year more people are killed across America in ordinary criminal activity than in all of the mass shootings in many decades, maybe a century.

Fatherlessness has been brought up and it is one thing the majority of mass killers have in common. SSRI use is another. Poor socialization is another. Being male is another. Being raised largely by a single mother is another

One of the driving factors in fatherlessness are the government social welfare programs. They effectively prohibit marriage and long term commitment. They create fatherless boys. They must be ended. All of them. SSRIs need to be stopped. And all laws and regulations preventing people who can legally do so from carrying anywhere need to be ended.

Easy divorce is another thing that needs to be eliminated as a creator of fatherless boys.

Mental institutions need to be reopened to house people incapable of functioning in society.

Children need to be raised and educated by 2 parents, and inflation (dollar devaluation) needs to be stopped and reversed so that a family can be supported by one working parent.

In kayaking, hiking, and camping people say "You are your own first best source of rescue." Fuck up out in the wild and you might not even get a chance to call 911, let alone wait for them to come. It is the same every where else and it is past time people recognize it.

We are all responsible for our own safety and we need to take and share that responsibility. We need to stop delegating our protection because the people we are delegating it to are not upholding their end of the deal.
 

Don

Well-known member
I hear you but that is not how he works. He didn’t let them be killed. He took them home. Just like he will me someday. Oh I won’t deserve it. It won’t be buy anything I’ve done but rather his love, merci and the most important part, his grace…the unmerited gift. And his home is allot nicer than mine.
 

truecrimson

Well-known member
Free will is one of Gods big things. He makes us choose, he doesn't choose for us. He neither causes nor stops human action.

I do believe he helps those who help themselves. I always liked the old Norse saying "Luck, often enough, will save a man. If his courage holds." It's an expression of a very similar concept, but I believe it's God, not luck.
 
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